EPISODE 24 - JONATHAN HSIEH

Welcome to the Impulse Spotlight where we meet with product development professionals and shine a light on the products they are most proud of.

In this episode, we meet with the Vice President of Product Development for 360 Electrical. Prior to joining 360 Electrical, our guest worked for several companies developing consumer electronics..

Jonathan Hsieh, whose parents immigrated from China and Taiwan, was born and raised in Los Angeles California. After graduating with a degree in Quantitative Economics from UC Irvine, he had the opportunity to start developing consumer electronics products and hasn’t looked back. In his spare time he loves to read books and listen to podcasts pertaining to mindset.

In our discussion, Jonathan provides an in depth look at what it takes to develop phone cases. From chasing down phone data, to extremely compressed timelines, Jonathan walks us through the fast paced world of developing cases for phones. Outside of the design process, he offers some great wisdom around using rest and recovery to perform your best and some things to be mindful of when selecting vendors.

Join us as we gain a better understanding of what goes into designing and manufacturing phone cases.

Show Notes:

Podcast Transcript:

Hey Jonathan welcome to the show.

How did you get started in product development?

So I actually graduated college in 2010 and it was really weird because i majored in like quant econ accounting i was going to go into real estate development but there was an internship lineup for that route but it was not a paid job so i elected to go another route which is like product management product development in like memory drives and so that is how i actually just started it was like 2 weeks right out of college i just wanted to work and gained some real world experience so kind of dabbled around and then 15 years later i am still in the consumer electronic space.

So what is your current role in what kind of products do you develop?

Yeah yeah i actually so currently i work for a company called 360 electrical they are based in utah and they sell things like search protector extension courts charging products for your mobile accessories my role with the company is VP of product development

All right and tell us about the product is there a product specifically that you want to talk about today?

So the product i actually want to talk about is actually from my previous job which is mobile accessory phone cases that is a really interesting type of product it is a really fast paced industry and you can get really old and grow a lot of white hair because of that

Yeah i am interested to learn about it so so yeah kick us off with this tell us like some of the highlights of developing a product like that

So mobile accessories uh i think we got to start with sort of the high level which is calendar calendar based so mobile is really driven by so every year there is actually a device launches so apple is going to launch your new devices soon you got samsung you got google and a every time there is a new device launches and you also have ipad and air pods you have to keep up and so what we do is well in the past is we would have to get the data ahead of time and you do that through 3rd party sources through the factory and then we have to open tools open molds and have sample develop tests ship product before lunch and so usually our customer want it right before the announcement so it is a really tricky it is a tricky product to develop because of the timeline compression but there are tricks around it once you have templates going around templates of what that looks like the design it can get pretty easy to work out so yeah.

How does that work?

No so so like e.g. iphone the factories they they have connections with sub suppliers of apple and that is how they get their data and for us we would work with them to hey do you have any data and usually factories are pretty open to share because they want the business and so we will get we will kind of triangulate we will get data from this factory from this factory in this factory and we will kind of like triangulate and see he is a button line of are the ports lining up all these little details and then we kind of hold on until we you know the timeline is right to really need to kick off tool just to make a launch so you know usually you are opening mold with a high degree of uncertainty and risk and so think about making that product and realizing you know all your inventory is wrong and you have shipped to the customer and then how do you clean up after that so the the tricky part with that is you are not going to get the device ahead of time so you are not going to get the phone and you are not going to test fit and so what we usually do is we will actually create a steel dummy and we will test it with the phone cases we will test the button we will test the port and the fit and you just have to work work with it so that is really 1 aspect of dealing with kind of like the apple and then you have other partners like samsung and google where you will actually be invited to to their headquarters or to their places in korea and you can actually see the device in person but you can not bring any you can not bring you know your own personal camera and to take photos so you know back in the days 1 of us developer will get actually be elected to take you know we will go in and then we will have to represent our other co workers our other developers so we have to take on their projects to as we go in with a bunch of phone cases and we are sitting there with a with a note and we are writing down oh you got to move this button by 0.5

So you can go in and you can go in and test fit you but you can not take any measurements you can do anything or take anything out with it?

Basically test fit but even before that we actually sent we will send designers or engineers actually to samsung and then they actually go into the room where they actually have to like redraw the cad so what they do is you will have the actual device and then they have to draw like a basic phone case around it and then they will take that phone case samsung will review the data and then send it back to us and and then from there we kind of have to like reverse engineer what the device shape is going to look like and so you really have to rely on your you know your coworkers to get the details right and um and then we will take that and then we will open it we will draw our own different design cases and then we will open the tool and then once we open the tool we will have samples and then we take a bag of samples and we will go into korea just to test it so that is 1 e.g. Where it is like really tricky you are not going to have devices ahead of time or you may have devices but you have limited access to it and then there are other times where like the carriers like 18 verizon they will just give you a device and then you just have to be very careful about not sharing it and that makes you know life much more easier when you yeah.

How how soon before the actual release you get like final data i mean have you ever gotten to where you have built a tool and then they decided we are going to move a button to a completely different area generally it is been pretty safe because the way you think about it is apple has to pretty much lock down their data and not make any last minute changes so they are months ahead they have to lock down the bomb to design and it actually mass produce so for them to change the last minute is a pretty significant change and then i think that also impacts their compliance process where they may have to redo certain things so for us usually the cadences like apple let us say we will make the announcement late september and so for us we will probably open tool probably in june or july and then we will do the sampling and we will ship production by like early august so it is a really compressed timeline and usually what happens is a lot of us will get sent to china and we will be there from tool kickoff till sample and then pre production so it can be like 4 to 6 weeks we are just sitting there camping at the factory and just reviewing samples and getting things out and just like you know being on the engineers yeah.

Tthat is crazy so walk us through like that you have talked about getting the data and then you have talked about tools like can you walk us through the whole process of what it is like to to you know design develop the entire product.

Yeah so basically you have sort of the concept the idea that is where you know your designer comes in build design and then once you have your design you will we will work on a preliminary cat and preliminary cat is usually what a designer kind of wants to model after and then you are going to send that cad to the factory and actually have the factories engineer redraw the cad because you want the cat to be toolable so they are going to reach all the cat in a certain way where you know it is table you can pull out at the tool there is not going to be issues and in that process there is usually a lot of back and forth between you know the engineers and the factory because the engineer wants it a certain way or the designer wants a certain way and but the fact is like hey no you cannot do this because of this issue so there is a lot of tug and pull there and what i try to do is try to accommodate the designer maybe like 30 % of the way but i am more practical and i think about production risk and production timeline issues and so we want to really listen more to the factory as long as the reason to give is very logical and so and and it makes sense and and so once we have um you know the engineer cat done we will actually build a prototype so that could be s l it could be threed print but the whole idea behind it is to really see the fitting and then also what it looks like visually and then once we have that done you know everybody likes a prototype we are just going to kick off tool and then when you kick off tool that is usually depending on you know the construction of the the phone cases let us say it is a single shot plastic or it can be an over mold so like a plastic and a tpu together or there is other materials involved or more complicated process that could put on the the the tooling time and the sampling time but generally like in a month you can have you know from tool kickoff to actually like t zero samples which which is trial zero samples in about a month so once we have tooling done then you have samples and so samples is really you will get the initial you know first shot injection and then you know you will review your test fit and then once we test fit everything like the ports all line up you know it is not loose it is pretty tight it is easy to put on it does not crack all the quality issues then we will go on and kind of do the final touches which is like the surface finish the paint the cosmetics applying materials so you do that kind of more in the later stages but in the beginning you are really kind of making sure hey does it fit does everything line up are there any other kind of basic issues before we go in and really polish a tool we text the tool and so that is really the sampling stage you know sample everything you get the colors out and then and then you do test testing there is some basic testing that could be like drop testing alcohol rubbing you know things of that nature and then we also work on packaging um and then after packaging you just have to drive well so with packaging you are actually coordinating with a lot of in house team because they have to do copy they have to do legal they have to create the content they have to do the artwork and so a lot of times you really have to make sure you know when they give you the artwork you are really reviewing and making sure all the details are correct because i have seen a lot of times even i have done it myself where i just really see our work and realize grab something wrong with that and in the factory sampled with 2 weeks send it to you and you realize that was wrong and so it does help to check other people's work and then but yeah once packaging is done you release the artwork you have samples of that you put it together with your phone cases you define the bomb and then you just go production and then before we go production there is also a planning aspect of it we look at capacity so do we need to create more tools to meet the launch date or you know i think the other thing is yeah the part sorry but yeah we we look at it is a pre production planning so tooling capacity is 1 of them and um and then the other aspect is material preparation so sometimes the phone cases that i deal with have leather on it and so leather generally has its own lead time especially if you are sourcing it from like italy or korea and i have had to do that because you know back in the days we partnered with a coach and so a lot of the materials came from korea came from europe and so we have had to order these materials ahead of time and so typically it takes like 2 months 2 to 3 months 2 months to make and then a month to ship it to the factory and so you really have to make sure you are not only doing development but you are actually kind of preparing the materials ahead of time and then so you are kind of lining up the production at the end.

Wow that is really interesting were the cases that you helped design the kind that just kind of snap over the phone so to speak that just kind of bend and you and you get or were they like 2 piece clams?

There there is different form factors we we have done like that snap 1 piece plastic but the industry really geared toward more protection and so with protection you either work with like more softer materials like tpu it is like a rigid plastic but it is flexible it can be a 1 piece but we have done a lot of where it is like it is a combination of p c polycarbonate and tpu kind of over moulded together or as a separate piece and you put it together we have also i have actually done a lot of cases where it is like a plastic but you have recess and and we call it inlay and we will like put leather or p you and we will apply the ore fabric and we inlay it into the recess and so you really get that fashionable touch and then there are cases where we do like techniques called high i ml in mo lamination this is where you take like a pet and you print like fashion prints and then you can do crazy things like glitter and foil really high and finishes and then you take that p t and then you kind of form it to that shape of the device or that the phone cases and then you put that p t into the tool of the other tool where there is already where you inject the overall plastic of the phone case and so it is bonded together and then you come out with this really girly design so that that is something that i actually worked on in my other job where we did a lot of licensing work and so we worked with brands like coach and kate spade new york and what was really interesting about that was there was an evolution in that period i think it was around 2014 where they call it like fashion meets technology fashion and meets tech where there is more now you are bringing more of the fashionable aspect where it is the materials or it is the print and and then now you are applying it onto your phone cases so it does not look really plain and so really seeing the evolution of phone cases go from something that is just plain and something protective to something that is very fashionable and something you you know it is a statement about you

Very interesting when it comes to the phone cases that are you know somewhat tpu i guess that just kind of snap over a phone are those molded just open and shut or do they have like collapsible cores and how do they get them out of the mold

How do they get the so the way to get it is it is usually there is a there is a way where it is like there is an ejector it kind of pushes out so it depends on the construction of the the tool and the way the factory or the factory engineer designs a tool but usually i have seen it where it is either just pushed out or it is done in a way they have to kind of just pull it.

They peel it off okay interesting yeah that is it i assume it is multi cavity tools all the time?

They pull it off yeah exactly i think it is so it depends so if if you have if it is like a single shot plastic type of case i would probably go more cavity because it is probably safer but when you have multiple components let us say a plastic and a t p a p c and a tpu and you are fitting together i generally will try to try to keep the tooling counts low meaning the cavity low because think of you have 2 cavities for a p c and 2 cavities for tpu and you have to mix and match and so not every cavity is 100 % the same and so if you open let us say a cavities a p c a cavities tpu you are going to have a nightmare trying to fit everything and then you are going to realize during production that this came from cavity 3 but it does not fit this so for consistency if you have more complicated or more parts to the the cases keep the cavity count low so it is more easier to modify and keep the size and control so you are going to have a lot of headaches yeah.

So with all the products impulse help design there is always like there is always a challenge and you have talked about plenty of them already but what what is the biggest challenge that you face when you are developing products like this

Yeah i think the biggest challenge there is a couple but i would say 1 of the challenge and and i think it is more kind of on the selling side is really the call it call it so when we when we before we kick off tool we will usually go into kind of a feasibility review and you are actually looking at compliance you are looking at costs you are looking at is this tool you are looking at you know is there going to be issues with the process so 1 issue that i think is really important for everybody to kind of really consider is do you have a customer for this product um do you have an existing base of customer that you have a home for it what i have noticed in the past with a lot of companies is they are just going to build and think that either their existing customer or there is magically going to be a customer that is going to take on this product and so you really have to look at you really have to audit your existing customer base and say hey is there a probability they are going to take it you also have to kind of look at your sales team and do they have are you confident and then selling that product what you do not want to do is just you know not have a business case and kick off a project spend 1015 grand on tool and then realize that no one's going to take it and then once you commit to that inventory you are tying up capital and then you are creating you know you are fluffing up the balance sheet so that is something that i would say is a challenge is to really consider the part about do you have a home for that product before you really commit to it and a lot of us i think get really excited about the product and positive and hey we are i think we can sell it we feel good about it but man get your sales team involved get your marketing team involved early on audit your customer and make sure you have a home for it that is probably 1 piece of advice i would share with everybody

Yeah that is that is really interesting go ahead keep going

And then the other sorry the other thing i would share is really and i think everybody can relate to is just this tug and pull with your designers and your engineers and i am sure you have kind of experienced that where engineers think no it has to be this way or design or no i want it this way and then you are kind of stuck in between with the factory and your kind of design team and so usually my kind of principle or the way they operate is i will try to accommodate my designer or engineered to a certain point but if the factor is coming back with really strong facts or sensible or it just makes sense that you just can not do it i am going to present it to the to the engineers and just make sure hey or engineer designer hey this is what we are seeing you know this is the risk are you okay with it so then you just have to put the the responsibility on them and say hey if something goes wrong i want to make sure you are responsible so that usually gets them to think hey maybe i need to compromise a little on the design and and then the other other aspect of working with designers and engineers is sometimes they can delay the project or they they do these like last minute changes without really considering the consequences like you will be making arrangements with a factory you will be steps ahead but they want to make some last minute changes where they want to add something to the samples and then you kind of have to throw away all your arrangements so uh what i would do typically typically in that case is just tell tell the you know you know be respectful and just tell your your team and like hey you know when you do this is actually not convenient and this is how you impact the timeline and this is how you impact the rest of the team so you really have to shine a light like this is your behavior and this is how it affects everybody else not just me and so usually shining a light on that kind of makes them more more agreeable more cooperative to work with otherwise they are really stubborn and stuck in their ways so i would say that is kind of like the the challenges of development where you kind of have this back and forth dance with you know your designers and engineers and so you know you just have to shine a light on them and say hey there is consequences to changes and are you okay with that and how does that impact everybody else

Sure sure yeah we are we are kind of in the middle of both you know we will get direction from a designer and then we what we design goes to a tool maker right so the tool maker pushes back and the designers pushing back and yeah we are just kind of like you were juggling like how do we make everybody happy and sometimes you just you can somebody is got a compromise so that is just the nature of the the so we have been talking

Especially when it is like very tech go ahead sorry especially when it is like very technical like you can not tool because this this is something wrong with the tool you can not texture like that that get when it gets really technical and you have to translate in chinese to english that is when i go like all right we are just just jump on a call we are going to jump on a call i am going to do my best to translate but i want the designer to be on the call in real time to ask the questions and usually when when they are on the call they usually are more easier to kind of work with versus when you have to kind of translate it and then talk to them and send the factory feedback to them because they can get pretty stubborn or resistant to the to the feedback because they do not understand.

Yeah yeah face to face it is a big deal it reminds me of a story this has been wow maybe 20 years ago i was working for doing a project for a juvenile products company and they had the tooling people come in to the to their office in chicago and i sat down with a guy i know no chinese and i sat down with a guy he knows no english and we basically pointed and drew and for half an hour you know worked out this issue of you know how something needed to be changed and and like speaking no words and got it resolved in like 31 yeah drawing and pointing and yes and no and yeah it was really interesting.

Just just drawing

Yeah yeah it was it was the people around us were like really you got to solve yeah yeah we got a time i think we are good so so yeah

That is actually like 101 important thing i look for when you are kind of sitting down with with the factory like i get the opportunity to actually travel travel abroad to actually sit down with the factories the engineers and then the you know their quality team and that is where you really have to like just ask them questions and really you know there is a couple filters that i do where 1 you kind of say you ask certain things about development but you really want to listen to kind of their way of thinking the other thing is like what vocabulary do they use you know sometimes when they say when they talk about things you know certain engineers will be very like pessimistic very limiting belief like you cannot do this you can not do that so you have to pay attention to the language that they use and then the other time the other thing i would say is like you know kind of see how they interact like the sales window and the engineers and you know the quality team because the people that arranges your project you know your contact window you want to make sure they have a you know a basic level of respect that they command at the you know with their team because what i have noticed is if that person is not well respected because of you know certain behavior or because they are poor communicators or whatnot that will actually create delays in the project because the engineers or the people that work with them will not probably support them all the way or they will not prioritize them and so what that ends up happening is your project gets delayed and delayed delayed because of the resistance so that is something that you know when you sit down with the factor you really have to get them out um it is like it is like a setting you know configuring your setting and when you are playing a game you want to make sure you pick the right team and so those are you know a couple tidbits that i would you know share with the world

Yeah that is that is really good we have been talking in generalities about you know phone case design so normally i asked about a specific product but if you could go back in time and change 1 thing about developing the product it being phone cases in general i guess what would it be?

Wow i think that is a hard question but like knowing what i know today you can go back you are like i can make a lot of money doing this and that let us see. Knowing what i know today… yeah that that is a that is a real that is a that is a question i have i have to think about you are talking about like more more design specific right where it is more of a general type of question

Yeah just it is it is always interesting you know once you get through the process you know you and you you know get to the finish line you always look back and go man if we could have done that differently or you know made this decision differently you know it would have had a huge impact is there anything like that that that you can think of you know being somewhat removed of it now

Oh yeah so kind of going back to what i was talking about so and my last job like we did a lot of projects we did not look at the business case we liked the design we just open tool and you know i what part of the company culture was kind of like you took on your own projects like the directors or people about kind of just let you do your own thing they were not aware of how many projects you had to had to run or how to oversee and so for me it became like a whack a mole like you are constantly getting things off your plate it is hard to delegate because you just have so much on your mind your head space is like so occupied you have all these moving pieces and so going back then 1 major thing i would change is being more selective of projects pushing back and saying no this does not make sense is there a business case behind it and being selective i think because we have you know you have sales you have internal teams you have designer you even have the CEO wanting to kick off a project without realizing that the ads on at to your plate and so when you add to your plate and that plate fills up that is going to take away from something else you know your attention your energy and so the 1 thing i would say is just being more selective and and i would not say pushing back but more of like hey can we get more justification on you know is this a valid business case to spend the money and the resource and time and effort versus like doing 200 300 projects all the same time and then you are just like burning resources and i think that was sort of my last company where it just got really crazy and eventually you know financially the company got into trouble both inventory wise and and then they got taken over by the bank so that that is a consequence of spreading yourself too thin and so i would say go back and be selective understand the business case and then kind of also making sure this home is a customer for it speaking up i think most important thing you got to speak up the people that bring that wants to kick off the project is speak up and say hey i do not think this makes sense and here is why but you know be afraid to be wrong you know i do not be afraid to be wrong i think that is the thing have a have a you know a good discussion about it and so they feel strongly about it i would say you know support them but at least call it out so

Now that is good stuff yeah so switching gears just a little bit as we start to wrap up and this is probably my favorite question that i asked because everybody comes at it from a different perspective what are some of the trends that you see emerging in the product development world

I think in the product development world everything is so accessible now what i mean by now is that you have so much competition out there there there is a there is so much design out there you really have to be on top of your game i know this is like a very generic kind of statement but you can go on amazon really see pretty cool designs you have factories selling directly on amazon so i would say you know the trend the trend used to be where you have kind of like you know brands in the us and then they will work with factories and then you know they will bring the the product to the market but now what you are seeing is factory trying to sell directly b2c by amazon or some some platform to the consumer and so not only do you have competition from you know brand to brand but you also have competition from now the factory so i would say it is it is it is this trend of just you know factory can making a business selling just to you know a customer they actually have to open up channels to b2c basically and so you just kind of this is a lot of competition a lot of cheap cases a lot of cheaper things and you just have to bring your game bring your a game.

Yeah that is really interesting i have seen that everywhere i mean it is it is rampant right now

Yeah ramp it and your margins are shrinking so it is harder it is a harder business model to do because you have a lot of capital capital to spend on tooling and compliance 3rd party testing and then the margins are shrinking because of competition and you have to run ads or you have you know you you are in retailers and you have marketing fees and programs to pay them so you will and then you so basically you know reducing margin high high capital cost potentially that ties up your capital and then you have to deal with a lot of inventory and so if you are not planning carefully that inventory can really ruin the company so it is a hard business model to be in especially these days

Reflecting on all the challenges and successes you have had while developing products what words of wisdom would you share with someone looking to make a significant impact in the product development industry

i think the biggest word of wisdom i would say there is a couple but the first 1 i would say is you really have to schedule schedule your rescue so prioritize your rest and recovery and what i mean by that is you have to schedule a time for yourself to really go work out or go rest do not do anything else because in the product development world you know that motor is constantly on when you are especially when you are dealing with asia and there is a time difference and so you know this is a marathon and you really have to keep your energy up you know and you want to show up with with with energy and you want to show up with with a good mind and so the way to do that you really have to prioritize your your rest and your recovery i made the mistake of back in the day it is just not the mistake but i was just working hard you get an office 809 in the morning and then you are constantly working till 8789 you are eating late dinners and then you are sleeping at 12 and 1 in the morning because of the time difference and you keep doing this and then as a result you put on some weight you know grow a lot of pimples you know you just feel unhealthy and the the wakening for me was when COVID started to happen i actually got COVID and it was like the first wave there was no no remedy for that you know and so i was in a hospital for 2 weeks and there was a point where i was like hey i am yeah i was i was like i do not know if i am going to make it because i cannot breathe my i coughed so much that i could not even expand my lungs and because i was you know could not get enough oxygen into my body my like nails were all purple and so you know COVID is real and so it you know while in bed i was like you know that was not a good idea to work hard all those years because you are working hard for a company but as a you know for what and so i remember sitting there i was like well i just need to start handing things off to my sister i was getting you know preparing a list of like my passwords and where things are at and i was going to just text it and hand it off to my sister because i did not know i was going to i am going to survive the next few days or not and so that experience really made me kind of reflect and say you know in the product development world you are constantly going and so you you want to make sure this is a marathon and to do that and to survive and to have energy and show up you know set time for yourself to just rest and recover you know and so that that would be like a piece of wisdom i would share with other people.

Yeah that is that is really good

And then there there is actually 1 more i think will be really valuable and this was a discussion that i had with my my designer and my current company he is a really humble loving guy and you know we talked about a lot of times at work you know we can get into these negative mindset and this negative mindset is more about we start to care a little bit too much about what others think of us and when we do that that starts to impact our work the quality of our work the way we communicate our confidence everything and so you have to kind of reframe that kind of mindset and instead of you know thinking about is this person thinking negative negatively of me you have to kind of say hey what can i do for the team how can i serve the team and so that is shift in energy like that shift in mindset shifts your energy and your kind of your attention is not more outer directed you are more focused on the outside instead of internally and so what that allows you to actually do is now be more comfortable and more confident and you start to work better with the team and you actually put out more call quality work so you know to summarize you know yeah we want to we want to care to a certain point about what others think but really it is not as productive when you versus if you just say hey you know what can i do to help the team and serve a team and when you have that kind of mindset behind your work it can lead to really good results

it is crazy

Yeah it does not take long to learn though like you said 1 little but something and you are like something is got to change here so awesome this has been great before we finish is there anything else you want to mention with regards to products the products you have talking about or product development in general.

Yeah yeah exactly

I was actually thinking about like kind of wisdom to share there is actually 1 more i would share with you know with whoever's listening like it kind of goes back i think i mentioned earlier like review you know the artwork review the cad review whatever your your team has sent you because a lot of times what happens is you will send a file out let us say you send an av file and then the factory comes back to you the next and say we can not open it is missing something you just lost the day there and in in product development you know time to market is really key and so the more days you are sitting developing the more money and resources you are burning up and so you know these little these little mistakes do add up and so what i have noticed with our work is you know designer kind of messing up the pantone color call outs or they are missing a call out or you know there is layers of this missing in the artwork file and so what i usually do is release it to the factory tell the factor to review it right away first thing in the morning and then if they have trouble issuing or opening the file or if they see something let me know right away and then i am usually like texting the designer engineer like get this fixed right now and so that is just like the piece of ice i was i would give is like release the r work quickly in the morning have your factory open it up first thing in the morning make sure everything is makes sense the penton they can find the panton color the artwork file opens on properly it is not missing any embedded layers or whatever and then if not you know hold your hold your team accountable get that artwork to them that same day or that same night because you know kind of going back you know time to market is key so

Sure yeah yeah it is interesting it the the company that i worked for before i started impulse their whole thing was time to market and i do not know if maybe i just do not pay as much attention or things have changed like it is almost like companies do not value that they could save you know they they do not analyze that and go if we get that product to market even faster that is actually more money we are making and less money we are spending but it is interesting.

Exactly and and i would add to that actually so you know 1 of the practices i did with my company was like even before it is like in production you want to start pre selling the product and what that does is going to bring more cash flow closer a lot of times when i noticed with company even with like my current job is you know they will they will finish a product they will make production and then once product land they will start promoting and so you know kind of going back to i think like in the real estate world they will build apartment but before they complete it they already start pre selling you know those rooms and so you want to do that you know we want to embed that into your practice and so you know that is allow you to that is going to allow you to kind of get more cash flow up front because just know that you are going to sit on sit on capital and burn that capital for a period of time before you can really have product that you can sell and so the best way to mitigate that is you know once you have a really good samples start promoting the heck out of it show your customers send it out to customers put it online and then in the meantime you know plan out the rest of your development and your production and so you can have a launch day ready in mind so you know pre sell i would say that that is a really good advice for pre sell.

Yeah that is really good advice so awesome well i appreciate you doing this Jonathan.

Thank you for having me.